Teachers Talk Nine Days #2

Clare is joined by Melinda Keyte in this conversation, to discuss Toni Jordan's novel, 'Nine Days'. The discussion is rich and broad, as Melinda speaks knowledgeably and passionately about the text, including ideas of women's emancipation, the symbolism of the house on Rowena Parade, Jordan's rich characterisation and the importance of love in upholding social values in difficult times. The novel itself traverses a period of significant change in Australia, and so there is much to explore. Even those with a confident conception of their understanding of the novel should listen in, as this discussion will challenge and inspire new understandings and perspectives. 

A couple of post-conversation notes from Melinda:
- Check out page 259, as this is where you will find many pivotal quotes about Connie's death and Kip's reflection after Alec discovers the photograph - "no one expected a grand passion, you see. We aimed for smaller things: the health of our family, being warm, being safe." 
- Don't forget that Charlotte had a daughter, Libby, as well. The three women, therefore, Stanzi, Charlotte and Libby made Alec feel oppressed (in his own words). He says he'll "never live in a house", preferring to think of himself in a loft in New York or somewhere in India. But, fundamentally, it is his relationship and respect for his grandfather that saves him from tragedy in that fatal car trip.  

Transcript

Nine Days

Clare: . [00:00:00] Melinda, thank you so much for joining me on Teachers Talk texts. 

Melinda: . Thanks, Claire. I'm really , glad to be 

Clare: here. Well, yes, it's I'm, I, it's my second episode back after a bit of a hiatus, so very, very pleased to be here and really pleased to be talking about nine Days by Tony Jordan again.

I have already recorded an episode, I think one on this text, but it's so rich and so has such depth that there's so much to talk about, so I have no doubt we'll go in really interesting and new directions in this conversation. Yep.

But I'll throw you my very first question, which is what do you love about the text? 

Melinda: Okay, well, it's A few things. I absolutely loved reading a text where you have walked a street many, many, many, many times. And the reason I've walked Rowena Parade, which is the main street in, well, one, , it's the main area in which every one of the characters goes to at some point.

Even the [00:01:00] characters that are fourth generation in, in the, in the whole scheme of things over the 60 years they all go end up in Rowena Parade. And I think it was in the nineties a really good friend, actually two sets of friends of mine lived in Rowena Parade. And what I discovered as I was reading.

Tony Jordan's novel is that some of, some of the historical references to things like stables. I could then connect that to my personal life and my friends because they actually lived in converted stables, whether they're, there's, they're the same converted stables. Hmm. That are, that are appear in the novel.

That's not, I can't prove that, I don't know. But yes, had re had walked past a lot of the iconic buildings. The London Tavern used to walk through the church through St. Ignatius all the time. And so when I was teaching the text, it was very alive to me. And that makes it all the more joyous to teach a text.

And the last time I'd had that experience was [00:02:00] actually teaching Robert Newton's the runner. Also step in Richmond. But sort of around the whole story about Squeezy Taylor and Charlie Fien, a boy who's a runner, who ends up sort of unfortunately getting catching the eye of squeezy. So that's why I love it.

And then I loved the writing, the characterization the way that Jordan traverses all these incredible points of view, perspectives, views and values social mil years, milu mils over the 60 year period, and also the feminist aspects to it. I think there's a real sort of uncovering of emancipation of women in the two characters that have babies.

Is it 30 to 40 years apart, 30 years apart? So that's why 

Clare: I loved it. , there's so much there to unpack. I think I totally agree with you that reading a text where you can visualize [00:03:00] yourself the setting, it's, it's, I mean, I, I don't wanna say it's not necessarily unique for us or rare even for us as readers, but it's really nice to see some Australian tech set in, , Melbourne being put on our year 12 text list.

I think that's really fantastic. And also that students can, if they want to jump on the train, head into Richmond and, and walk those streets and try and, and get a feeling, because I think setting my understanding is setting is incredibly important for Jordan's novel. For all the reasons you mentioned before in that all the characters have some sort of interaction with Rowina Parade and within with that house.

Did you do much work on that with your students? The significance of the house and the moving in, in and out of that house and , what Jordan might be seeking to do there? ? Well, 

Melinda: yes. I mean, we, we definitely focused on the house, but we also focused a lot on the, a lot on the quotes that the characters say about half how far up the hill they are and therefore where they are in the social [00:04:00] strata.

Okay. At that period of time where j Gene Westaway is constantly saying, well, we're halfway up the hill. This is a significant way of thinking about where the house is and where they live. In terms of, in terms of where people working, people of rich of Richmond had lived before in the twenties and thirties, they were practically starving.

Hmm. And so there's an ambition there and but there's also a craving to be acknowledged, to do the right thing, to educate your children respect res respectably. And there's a whole quest to be respectable. Mm-hmm. So the locus of the house. Is symbolic for many, many, many, many reasons. Yeah, it's a place of love.

It's a place of gathering. It's also a place of destruction. It's a place of terror. For Connie, it is a place of disappointment, grief, and anger for Gene when she loses her husband. It impacts, it impacts all the [00:05:00] characters because in the generations and how the generations of parents relating to their children in that house, it creates a legacy.

that then has an impact on other generations. 

Clare: Indeed, indeed. And I think as you read through the novel, that becomes clearer and clearer through to the, well, the penultimate chapter. I think Alex chapter is the second last one. And I mean, I'm hoping the students listening to this podcast have already read the whole novel.

So it's okay if we do skip to the end to talk. Cause I think sometimes when we're teaching a text, I don't know about you, but you can't teach this text necessarily in the order that you read it because it's structure is so significant and what Jordan's done in taking a, , one day or one moment, or one, , one snapshot vignette of these nine different people in the same family.

But such clever vignettes I think is really, really [00:06:00] fantastic. Would you usually start at the end, or where would you jump in with your, when you were teaching it? When you are teaching it? Well, 

Melinda: it works a little bit differently at our school because we taught a cohort and then we sort of split it up between lots of different teachers.

So I taught a particular section, if you like. That's really 

Clare: interesting. Can you tell me more about that? I've not heard 

Melinda: that before. Yeah. So what that means is during the pandemic, obviously a lot of teaching went online, and so I was already working in a very, very strong, a school with a strong online presence, and it already was very confident and it wasn't a stop gap or a bandaid.

So what that means is, is that the year 12 and teachers get together and they they all have a go at teaching the cohort over a six to eight month period. And then it cycles through a couple of times. So each semester, and you have one person who is, who is moderating. Chat questions, , like intersections doing, making opportunities for [00:07:00] collaboration making opportunities for students not just to be sort of sitting there, , as it were in a chalk and talk or a direct, , direct instruction way, receiving information.

It's all very participatory and there's breakout rooms and you sort of, I mean, everyone knows about this sort of software now, but back when we started it was particularly helpful to me to go, okay, I'm going to be dealing with Charlotte. And then I'm gonna be dealing with Alec because Alec and Charlotte, , Charlotte is Alex's mom and , Charlotte has this , kind of layabout, if you like, dude, musician partner who decides to rack off to, to Malam Bibe and being a rock and roll dude and isn't interested in being a dad particularly.

And that leaves Alec vulnerable to bullying. And it also is interesting as a chapter right near the end when you're talking about the difference between the two women who have children in the, [00:08:00] in the novel and how, because of the social times that they live in, they experience their pregnancies.

It's also interesting to see Alec as a young man who speaks to the students who speaks. Kind of like the students in their idiom, if you like. Sure. He's not a text speaker. Yeah, he's not texting all the time, but he, he has phrases and he has language that sort of appeals to the, to the, to the VCE students.

And so when the VCE students are really bored or going, oh, this doesn't relate, or Oh, it's so old fashioned, you can quickly like get them sort of engaged by going to Alex's story and going, Hey, this is a story that could be any one of you. 

Clare: Absolutely. And we, I mean listen, I say we've all, cuz we have been teenagers too, but felt that experience of peer pressure and that pool between one's family and one's friends and , that feeling that it's maybe a little bit uncool to be going over to your grandma and grandpa's house and be helping [00:09:00] them out.

That, , the cool kids in school might not think that's a good thing to be doing. But that. I mean, fundamentally it's, I mean, there's maybe a little bit of a basic analysis, but it's his family who saves him. That's, I think, that family that has been built up over generations. And even though all those mistakes have been made, and even though I think gene would maybe feel a sense of fail failure when she, , with, with, with what happened with Kip and Francis, what happened with Connie, we see in a couple of generations later that what it was that she was trying to so desperately to instill in her family has maybe paid off.

Most 

Melinda: definitely. Yeah. And I think that's also the influence of Stan. I think this ironic, this sort of the cynical sister, aunt to Alec who lives. With Charlotte and Alec is a parental figure. And , there's a line in, there's a line in Alex chapter where he says, , Stan lacks imagination because why else would she live here?

But [00:10:00] actually what's happened is she has, , divested herself of that by that time of the need to find the kind of love that her parents have that she feels she could never replicate in her own life. Mm. And has, has, I mean, everyone choose and, and has been able to choose her own family by staying and supporting her sister that she was, , very much you're a hippie and you're crazy and you're waving pendants over your pregnant tummy and my God, let me get you a pregnancy test.

, what do you think? Yeah. And so I think what's really beautiful about what you are talking about too, is yes, the values that are. The values of integrity and, , that strong sense of family commitment that in, in the earlier chapters and you, you see that Francis Westaway is not, does not take that on and is not honorable.

Right. Whereas and so you, you get to this point where Alec actually does what [00:11:00] he, he actually in one particular moment makes a choice, makes a decision that saves his life. Mm-hmm. And , it, it look for a moment you're sitting on the edge of your seat going, oh no, please don't get in that car with your friends.

? Oh, 

Clare: I still get tingles. Like even you saying it then that feeling and experience of reading it. Yes. And wishing so desperately for the happy ending, which I'm so glad that Jordan gave us because Well, there's, why not? Well, not always for, to make a point. I was, and there's enough sadness I think in the final chapter.

I think if she'd had sadness in Alex chapter and Connie's. 

Melinda: Definitely, I don't know, there's a lot of pathos. The Deni Newman, as you say, is really sad and, and, , tragic. But also I love the way that Alex chapter wraps up all the symbolism of of the photograph and, and the schilling and, , finding the photograph, et cetera.

And so what that means is for a chi for a character without a father, a present in his life, he suddenly is, gets all this knowledge and [00:12:00] information that ties his whole family together and makes it seem, impenetrable inviable, but, , strong, tough and what family should be. , like not just what we see in ads or perfect sitcoms, but what families should be.

And those values that are so strongly embedded in the earlier generations are now coming to the fore and making, making kids like Alec, , Really great people, 

Clare: which is what we hope for, I think. Yeah. Any parent hopes for that? , as you were talking about Stanzi, then I just, a thought occurred to me this, this act of hers and coming back to your comment about the feminist reading of this text, which I think is really strong and I very much enjoy that decision that she makes to live with her sister and to, , build her own family and to opt for something that isn't that nuclear family traditional following what inverter coms everyone else, everyone else does.

That's an incredibly feminist act, I think and it's [00:13:00] only just occurred to me, occurred to me that that is what she's doing. I've often found her chapter a little bit that, not that it's, it doesn't fit, but it does, it doesn't fit maybe as neatly as some of the others because it is a very personal quandary.

I mean, I know that it sets up the Schilling, the coin. Yes. But that whole experience with Alice, that she, , that she's counseling and the pizza. Violet. Violet, is that her name? Oh, violet, not Alice. Gosh. Anyway, yes, you can tell as many books in my head. There'll be somewhere else as another book with Alice, but whoever she's canceling.

Yeah. I often found that and granted, I haven't ever taught this text. I've tutored it, but not taught it. Which I think is different. You, you take a different approach because Yeah. For, , for a number of reasons. But it's, I really like that comment that you made. I think that's, I, I feel like I've, she's shifted in my head about where she sits in this text.

Yeah, it's 

Melinda: definitely a choice. I think also it's a gift that she gives to her sister. [00:14:00] Like obviously, , o obviously, Charlotte's gone knock, knock on any money. , she worked in a health food shop and she was hanging around with Craig and, , Craig's the cynic who's commenting on all the customers coming into the health food shop, , being, oh, , he's just, he's just really negative.

Mm. And, but she sort of like, goes for the rock and roll dude. And then she sort of left as this very optimistic I think Alec, , calls her like, , a full-blown hippie and like, says all these sort of negative things about her optimism. And Stan, her sister is very, very, very critical of her.

But then sort of like actually. Finds a way to make herself useful. Mm. Finds her w finds a way to make herself needed and wanted when she can't really find that for herself. No. Because her counseling, that girl who's very wealthy and who complains to her father in front of Stan, when Stan goes over [00:15:00] saying to her, saying, I think you've stolen this thing from my room, Michelle, the shilling is, , I really don't like being counseled by someone who's fat dad in front of Stan.

And, , you, you can, like, it hits home because there's a point later where her parents, she's 35 years old, and her parents are saying, do you want us to go around there and like, , talk to them like her mother's saying, do you want me to sort her out? And that deep down inside, yes, Stan is like looking for.

Purpose looking for, meaning, looking for, so she actually, it's, it's two things that she does. It's, it's creating a life for herself where she doesn't have to have, have to live by anybody else's rules. Mm-hmm. There's some suppositions, some sort of guesswork from other students in Alex chapter where he's being sort of as the child of two lesbians and he's, and instead of, , mom and aunt.

Right. So, and that, and this, this sort of, the way that Jordan [00:16:00] characterizes people's assumptions, judgments, and so on, l like leads us back into thinking more deeply about the characters, even if their chapter didn't spell everything out. Yes. Or did , or didn't, , really round everything out as well as it might have.

There's still questions about Stan at the end, , who is she? Who is she gonna be? Who is she gonna have a relationship with? Is she ever gonna have a relationship, ? Mm. But I think what I like about it is she's seen that actually she can have her life on her own terms if she does this.

And at the same time, she is almost like a better parent to Alec. He says, , yeah. She doesn't hassle me. She sees he's, she sees me. Whereas mom's always like, , wants Alec to be more like she is. 

Clare: And there's an element. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. An element as well of an, it's hard to say if it's echoing, maybe or foreshadowing because of the structure, depending if you think about it as a chronological tale or in the [00:17:00] structure or the, the order that Jordan does it, of her namesake, Connie and Stan.

So I think when students work that out, that the, I think both their names are Constance. Yes. And Stan or Connie, depending on how you make a nickname out of it. Who was not able to live her life on her own terms, who was, because of the social structures of the time and the fears of her mother who was denied, denied that.

And, and she should have had her love with Jack. , it, it's so unfair and so tragic in, in the true sense of the term of, of the word. Yes. But that her niece, Connie's niece is, is afforded that, that privilege is significant. I think from, that's what I think Jordan's telling us, , we have come some way, we're not there yet, but we have come, come somewhere.

Oh, I, I agree. 

Melinda: And there's definitely an eal intent there to demonstrate and show that once upon a time, society [00:18:00] dictated what women could or couldn't do. Including, including the fact, not, not even the. Not just being able to have a child out of wedlock, but Jean Westaway goes some way to explaining in that chapter, in her own chapter that you wouldn't even be able to find a decent fella even if you managed to adopt it out.

Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a lot in there about values that have changed. So really, really significantly. And I think what what Jordan wants to, to show us is that, and certainly this is an interesting thing, when you've got students who feel very empowered, they have social media, they can say what they think, they can express their opinions, their views, nobody's holding them back.

Mm-hmm. that once upon a time you really couldn't. And that, that the, and that the gossip. , the gossip mill in that [00:19:00] street, in those slums, in those areas. , halfway up the hill for Gene Westaway is halfway away from the slums. Mm. From poverty, from, from free being freezing cold. Mm. , from not being able to put food on the table.

And so you've got this, , you've got this awful chapter that , ends in Connie's, in Connie's death because Jean cannot accept that If she allows her to keep her ch, if she allows her daughter to keep her child, the family won't be ruined. And, and 

Clare: in fact, Connie dying is a better out, this is terrible, but it's a better outcome for the family.

It is. Than her having that baby. Yeah, 

Melinda: it is. Because it would've brought shame on the family forever. Mm-hmm. . And you can just see that it's, it's Gene's last thread, gene Westaway Connie's mom's last thread of hope. After her husband dies, Tom dies is basically keeping the family together. And that staunch value of I will have my boys educated, I will get [00:20:00] them to church.

I will, , make a, make a home. And even if I have to take in a border, 

Clare: yeah, I'm 

Melinda: gonna make this happen in over in the process, she becomes bitter and, and very unhappy. But you're absolutely right. And so Jordan's showing us that also as a feminist, reading that even though Charlotte can freely have her child in the nineties and Alec grows up to be fine and there's still consequences though.

Mm-hmm. There's still, , he still struggles with his identity. And I think, , what is beautiful about Stan living with them is Stan adds She's like a pillar, a fa another family pillar for him. And he, she, she's very much standing in for the father, for the absent. Yeah. Yeah. And Jordan's like, , basically lighting up the, , the stage for us to see that not all families have to be nuclear families with a mom and dad and two kids.

Right. They families are made up in different ways. Mm-hmm. [00:21:00] 

Clare: and all of them are valuable though. You just used the phrase absent father. And it's interesting. There are a number of what I would call absent fathers through the text as well in, I mean, for a range of reasons. You've got, and now I've forgotten his name.

Is it Tom Westaway, the father? Yes. Genes. Yeah. So Tom Westaway, who. Is he hit by a tram? Yes. And is he drunk when he is hit by a tram drunk? Yeah. Yeah. Drunk and hit by a tram. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I mean, all, all the men are at 

Melinda: the pub, and then I imagine that six o'clock closing would've happened. Mm-hmm. . And then they either go home to drink more if they're depressed and if, , they're not having a good time or yes.

And he dies tragically, 

Clare: tragically. And I mean, there's, there's, there's quite a bit to unpack there as well. You, you've got the soc, like the sociocultural component in, in. I guess what was expected, , masculinity and femininity in turn of the [00:22:00] century, Melbourne. Yes. And, and the drinking culture that, , there was a reason that the pubs all closed at six o'clock because the men were in there drinking from, from the point that they knocked off work.

And what permission 

Melinda: drinking was about squashing your feelings down, drinking, absolutely. Feeling with emotion. Drinking was about if I don't have enough money to 

Clare: bring home mm-hmm. , or, 

Melinda: or , if I'm unhappy in my home or something disappointing has happened, I'll go to the pub and drink with the fellas.

Mm. And it was all unconscious. There's no therapy, there's no discussion, there's no discussion or feelings. No, really none of that going on. Other than, , do you want a cup of tea? Love . 

Clare: Yeah. 

Melinda: So it's social ill, and it is very much part of the Australian , fabric of our society. And Jordan is very, very, , Specifically putting it in to make us look at that.

Clare: And I think she cri she does there, there's criticism there. It's not smack in your face. But I suppose also if you combine Tom's untimely death with Annabelle's father and [00:23:00] his behavior, the two together show, , some, some criticism. I, I think Annabel's father is, he's a pitiable character. You do feel, I do feel some empathy for him, but not maybe half an inch.

I'll give him half an inch because really he needs to just stop drinking and start helping his daughter because you can't just crumble. 

Melinda: Also makes comments like, you are gonna leave me, or, , indicates he, he intimates, well , you are just gonna leave me sort of thing.

And really. in that time period, your only hope of getting out of an unhappy situation like that. So Annabel is confined to the home, confined as a young woman to look after her father. Yeah. Forced into sort of indentured labor really for the rest of her life. And the only reason that she escapes that, because Francis starts to ask her out to dances.

Mm-hmm. And then is actually quite mean to her. And eventually she [00:24:00] turns to to Kipp. To Kipp. And, and , that's the love story. The incredible love story of the honorable bro. The honorable, honorable son Kipp. Mm-hmm. And, , the beautiful softhearted soul Annabelle , finding this incredible love, but absolutely through luck, ?

Yes. Sheer luck. Really. 

Clare: Yes. It's interesting that luck is, well not, and it's inter interesting in the sense that it's something to, I think, , be mindful of that. There is elements of luck in this Yes. In this story. And even I've seen some students write about that as a, a kinda a motif of the, of the text in the same way that we might say the shilling or the pendant becomes Yes.

Because there's so, but good luck and bad luck too. I think the two sides of the same coin, sorry to use the same symbol in a different way. But that's interesting, interesting too that a story that's so grounded in reality that's so grounded in a historical period that's so real. That is based on, , we know that that [00:25:00] beautiful story that it's based on a, a photo, that photograph that's on the front, that was a real Yes.

Love , two lovers partying on the train, and yet there's that element of the, oh, can we call luck the supernatural? No, probably shouldn't. I don't know. What would you, what would you tell it as. 

Melinda: I dunno whether I'd call it supernatural, but I do see what you're, I I, I can see that there is a kind, well, I would call it grace.

I would call it grace. I would call it something that comes in and for a particular where, , where authors, so Jo George, r r Martin, , he's written , song of Ice and Fire on all those novels that have become Game of Thrones chooses not to save people because they're good people like chooses to kill off.

Yeah. Because he'd seen all his friends go to Vietnam War and really good people lose their legs and die and so on. So he, he is not, he's not averse to killing off, , people really early and so on. Hmm. In the book, in the books, in this book, which is, , obviously not a fantasy and obviously [00:26:00] in here and now you are, you're actually thinking about.

Okay. Some characters are so good that life accidentally elevates them and lifts them up. It's a kind of grace that happens. 

Clare: Yes. And it's not 

Melinda: necessarily through prayer or being a good person or being good brother or sister or whatever, but there's that hope and grace that is linked together that also allows the book to explore some very, very dark themes but not get mired.

And everything is awful and everything is terrible. And everything's tragic. Yes. And everyone's poor. And everyone's poor. 

Clare: Yes. Because there is hope. 

Melinda: Yeah. There's hope. It would be be quite unrelenting if you went and lived, if you went to row a parade between 1938 and 1948, I would suggest, , it would be a very unhappy place to live.

Everyone's laundries. Hanging, no one's got heating. Everyone's dirty waters in the, , in the cobblestone lanes. , everyone knows everything. It's, it's kind of nasty and it's sort of it's sort of competitive. Like people [00:27:00] compete to get halfway at the hill and , who's gonna get this job or which, yeah.

So, yeah, and I love, I love the symbolism of that photo where, , the actual narrative that Jordan decides to, to ex to sort of create is, , that Connie goes off. She's an assistant photographer at the Argos, and she's saying she's going to see him off under the pretext of taking a photo.

And her brother goes and is, and then she's lifted up on her shoulders and the brother promises not to do anything with the camera, but 

Clare: takes the photo. Takes the photo. It's, it's beautiful. 

Melinda: And it's not revealed for so long. And so that's a gorgeous reveal. And I think there is something slightly supernatural in that clear to come back to your point, full circle.

Yeah. Slightly supernatural in that photograph because of the way that it's tied into the historical rich research that Jordan did and has acknowledged in the notes. Yes. And also the, the need to demonstrate to [00:28:00] her audience a an era that really has been been buried like, , away from our eyes away.

We don't, we don't. , we don't know what it's like to pick up a newspaper anymore. No. We know the significance of Bryant May a matches company . We, we don't understand what, what it would be like to only be able to read a newspaper or see a map in cia, , not even black and white, like 

Clare: such a different time.

Yeah. 

Melinda: And when you walk through Richmond now it's filled with, , high rise apartments and so on. It's very, like, it's still got, it's still got remnants. Mm. It's still got structural elements that are very much embedded in the novel, but that whole wave of real estate that's kind of gone through from the late, from two thousands till now has really transformed it into something that's barely recognizable.

Like, and the, and , the London Tavern, , it's, it's for groovy people now to have a knockoff drink, like to work who work in ad cat [00:29:00] companies and so on. . 

Clare: Yeah. It's not, it's not the watering hole of all the guys who worked in the factories. And yes, because that's the reality of what Richmond was.

It was very low socioeconomic suburb. In fact, I mean this is a thing that's maybe for students, w weird to understand, is that all those suburbs that were close to the city were not the, not seen as ideal places to live. , if Fitzroy, new Collingwood, Carltons and all kind of that, around that, that band around the city, that was where all the, the inverted coms are working class lived.

Port Melbourne even. Yeah. Which is so fancy now. , , the houses are going for millions and millions, but those were the workers' cottages of the guys who literally worked out on the ports unloading and unloading the ships. And it's just, yeah, it's a snapshot into a different time, isn't it?

That feels quite long ago. But really it wasn't that long ago really in the whole scheme of things. But just, it feels like a long time ago, given the, , I guess the technological revolution that's happened over the last [00:30:00] 30, 30 years probably. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. So we do get a little bit of supernatural, a bit of luck, I reckon.

Grace, 

Melinda: luck, supernatural, all coming in there. Mm. I think, I think even, even, even in the smallest way, the superstition and the sort of like belief in, I don't know, magic or the kinds of things that Charlotte believes in Yeah. Sort of show up, 

Clare: ? Yeah. 

Melinda: They show up even though she sort of derided by Alec and Stan as being just too silly, 

Clare: but they're, but they're there.

It always fascinated me too. I mean, when, when I come, , in that, in that liner, in that view of luck, hope, those elements that. In the structure of the novel. Cause I think this is another thing, I always encourage my students when they are writing about these texts, to discuss the structure, to feel really confident that that is as much evidence as a quote.

And you don't have to memorize , you don't memorize it. [00:31:00] But that, I mean, we, we know that we know Connie's fate from far earlier in the novel and that kind of echoes throughout. And we, it's sitting there. We don't get her chapter until the end. But that that the novel concludes with, with Connie saying, , I can't believe my good fortune, everything will be all right.

And that she's making a reference there to Fortune. And, , why does Jordan leave us there when we know that everything isn't all right? Is it? The love that she had with Jack was pure and good and true. And so therefore, that's what mattered. I think so. 

Melinda: there's something really amazing about the way that Jordan constructs the earlier love scene between the two of them because she, she is very assertive in the sense that at [00:32:00] those times you would wait for a bloke to be kissing you at the front door of your house.

You're going inside. Maybe you lean back against the fence a little bit and someone, , a man's got his hand around your waist and, but no, she, she, and she makes that whole thing kind of happen. Yeah. By going, by going towards him and being n nothing, nothing like Flo flirtatious. Nothing, nothing like that.

Just kind of magically sees that they are heart connected and love connected and feels an ecstasy, feels an absolute ecstasy. That's that's the words that are used. Yeah. And also feels a desire, she feels a desire, sorry, that she's never really, she's never experienced before. And I think that that is showing that even though it's tragic, she had that mm.

How many women did not Acknow could never acknowledge that in their own body, in their own heart, in their own mind. How many women of the era just got married to the bloat next door, or the guy at the milk bar? Or the [00:33:00] someone, someone who said, you've gotta wear, you've gotta marry someone who's , working at my stables or, 

Clare: , however, or who your dad said you should marry.

Yeah. 

Melinda: Or , your boss, for example, that Jean Westaway thinks that she's pregnant initially to her, her boss. Yes. So there's just a lot of, there's a lot of kind of beauty in, even though that is a tragic statement, very tragic. The exploration of her stepping into her own desire and her power as a woman in order to say to herself, I'm allowed to have this love.

I think that's, I think that that vindicates the end, the end being sad. I think that liberates us from, oh, it was just so terrible because really if, I mean, it's really jean's. Force Jean actually pressures her to have, have the abortion and, and give. She 

Clare: doesn't want to, does she? No. She 

Melinda: wants to have it.

She wants to 

Clare: wait. Well, she believes he'll come back and that, that he'll marry her [00:34:00] and that it will be okay. She believes the love is real and 

Melinda: it was, it is and is symbolized by the, the photo on the cover. Mm-hmm. , 

Clare: ? Yeah. It's true love. And how many true love stories were denied over history through respectability or what should be done, or a whole ra I mean, that's the trope of many a romance novel.

Is it not that you denied the love that you so desire or deserve because something gets in your way that you're, that is out of your control and it's too big for you to, to overcome. Yeah, and 

Melinda: we're talking about an era in which men routinely, or women would routinely say things like men, they're always action because they would be drunk and they would come home.

Whether you wanted to have physical relations with them or not. You were sometimes forced to, whether not all of the, what I, what I really love about what Jordan has done is create some very kind men, some very [00:35:00] devoted men, some very beautiful, beautiful humanistic relationships amongst all the tragedy and the denial and the sadness and the war and the loss that we, we kind of can lift ourselves towards and say, well, , I think that that's incredible that she chose to give that character an ability to love in that way, however short it was.

Yes. And, and that's what we live for. We live for hope, we live for love. We, we live for, , connection. We do. And I think that's really important to acknowledge and I think that's why I don't particularly mind the end of the book, but that's just me personally. 

Clare: Yeah, I like that. I like that. I think I feel like I still connect so emotionally with it every time I read it that I end up just in floods of floods of tears, which is, I mean, it's problematic when you teachers in the classroom, I think, and every time you go to certain sections, but maybe also the the being a bit older, having children of my own, it resonates.

It hits a little bit harder now than it may, that it [00:36:00] may have done 10 years ago. And it can be a little bit tricky sometimes. I think asking someone who is 16 or 17 to. truly empathize and, and, and delve into these characters. But like you said, we do have Alex. So it's a good, I like that. It's a good benchmark.

I wonder this the on on the topic of the good men in the text is this, is this an opportunity to talk about Kipp who we really, even though he is, is he, I mean the, the, the protagonist, the, the best one to term the protagonist, I think. Yes. We haven't really talked about him at all, which I think is fantastic cuz it just shows how much a subsidiary characters are irrelevant.

But how is it that he's able to be such a good man when his twin brother is not the, , they've had this, it's this nature nurture debate, right? , they've had the same conditions, the same upbringing. What is it that Kip has? Where does his honor come [00:37:00] from? Jordan even tell us. That is a very good question 

Melinda: and I,

all I can say is I think that because Gene Molly Coddles Francis, and it's her favorite, he's her favorite. He becomes vain. Yeah. And he also, Francis, to put this in context, Francis becomes a little bit, he's got a bit of a self-aggrandizement about himself. Mm. And he goes off into fantasy territory.

He's his mother's favorite. She gives him more, more bacon, is it for breakfast and more. And , she's always telling Kip off. Yep. And I think that KIPP just has this innate understanding and a bond with his sister and. They are sort of united against the mum and Francis and, and they sort of realize that in a way they're more mature than, than [00:38:00] Gene and Francis.

Yes. And Kip Kip is the man of the house. He's the man of the house. He will listen to his, his mother railing against him. And , he will with, he will take her badgering because he knows that she's sad and lonely and, , denied her husband. None of this is explicit. It's all implied. And the goodness comes from him just setting his dad himself to a task every day.

Not thinking too much about, do I go this way or do I go that way? Just doing what he should do for the family every day, whereas Francis. Allows himself to be taken off by a gang of boys, , thieves the pendant, and then later is bestowing it upon Annabelle. Like, , I'm gonna raise her up and, and save her.

And, . Yeah. He's actually very arrogant and he's actually got a sense of himself that is fake. 

Clare: [00:39:00] Yes. And we know that there's an element of dramatic irony, I think, in that scene, isn't there when Francis is talking, because some of the guys have come back from war and they say a few things to him and it gives those hints to the reader that the people around him, around Francis know that he maybe isn't who he says he is, or he, he, he doesn't have the attributes he believes in his fantasy world that he has.

He's telling that Uncle Frank doesn't marry right. Yeah, 

Melinda: he's a, he's, , he's a lovely fable, old, old uncle, but he doesn't, he doesn't marry 

Clare: no. 

Melinda: He loses Annabelle because he's absolutely horrible to her. I know I'm talking a lot about, you've asked me to talk about kipp, but I think, 

Clare: no, I think you have to talk about Francis too, right?

Meha KIPP's growth and 

Melinda: And his Stoicness. And his steadfastness and his honor, when you're looking at the two, it is a bit kind. Enable. I mean, it's not, they're not [00:40:00] evil one's, not an evil character, but I think Jordan's chosen to Absolutely. Show characters in a family where there's a deficit of love. Yeah.

And how children band together. So , Kip really bands together with Connie and Connie is the mother figure. Here have another I'll, don't worry, I'll get you another bit of bacon. Or don't worry, I'll clean up that for you or Mm. , and I think that love, that's why it's so devastating to Kip later to lose, lose Connie.

But the love that Connie on Kip makes him strong man. Makes him a more sensitive person. Yes. Did it seem grounding? Whereas he sees Gene as just, , wow, she's just broken, but it's implied again. It's implied. And her brokenness, she transfers her brokenness onto Francis. So he's the [00:41:00] best. He's the smartest.

He's going to school and so on. When actually Francis is a weaker character, he has a weaker inner character. It 

Clare: does, yeah. It's so, it's so it's almost that under. Story that we love, don't we in Australia, I mean in lots of fiction, but Australian, there's Australian tropes. I think especially we root for the underdog.

And we wanna see them, see them win, win out. It's interesting that there's two sets of twins too. I mean, obviously that does happen genetically in families, so it's appropriate what, what Jordan's done most. If you are a twin, sometimes you have a high chance, I think, of having twin children. Yep. But how different than the Kip and Francis dynamic is to the Charlotte and the stanza dynamic and how much KIPP's goodness, and integrity and honesty has been passed down to his daughters.

Yes. And obviously they've parented them in a very different way to how he was parented. Well also 

Melinda: you can see, I mean, almost, you could almost [00:42:00] split those two. Wow. I mean, Charlotte is very much her mother's daughter. Her mother's daughter. , she's ethereal and , she's a bit sort of like, I don't know.

She's always looking for the, for symbolic meaning and gesture and, and beauty and myth and legend. And, and, , and Stan's like, actually, could you put your feet on the ground please? So, , Stan's very much her, her fa and the, the cism comes in with Stan only because she is unhappy and doesn't think that she reflects the both of them.

, like Kip tells her, no, you're really beautiful. You look like your mom. , like, so I think there's some, there's some things that go on in that dynamic as well that makes a deficit for Stan in terms of how she sees herself in the family, at least initially, at least in the opening. . Yeah. And also just being a psychologist, like wanting to understand [00:43:00] everything and wanting to, , control everything really.

Because if I can understand what's going on in, , everyone's, , psychopathology or whatever, I, then I can control it. But actually it makes her unhappier. 

Clare: Well, yeah. Oh, there's so much. Right. It's incredible that this text, given that it's relatively short, can have so much depth. But like you said, it's because all of these things that we are discussing today are we, we have extrapolated through reading between the lines and come to these inter we we're interpreting the text fundamentally in the way that suits a, , a reading that we're presenting, which is something that we want all of our student.

Hopefully to do, to not just feel that they have to write what is in a study guide or even write about what we've talked about, verbatim today. Maybe that they hear something that we say and go, oh, that's interesting. I might go back and reread that bit and see if that resonates with me. Or actually, I just fundamentally [00:44:00] disagree with what they've said.

I think that's great. , I thought I want, , what I, yeah. Feel en encourage our students to feel confident to make their own decisions about the text and what Jordan is, is trying to tell us. Not just, not just read the words on the page and take it too literally. Mm-hmm. . 

Melinda: Yeah. , the whole thing with masculinity too, being one of the topics that we explored in the text response is to return to Alex's father.

, I think for students wanting to, in like what it actually means to be an absent father, but one who has escaped to Mullan Bibi. If you've never been to Memb Bibi, I mean, of course you can look it up, you, but, , even if you went to Byron Bay 10 years ago, you would have a completely different impression now because of influences and Byron Bayes and whatever, and Mul is very dropout, hippie, , crystals and chai and weed [00:45:00] and, , rock and rollers and not much money.

And people who marginalize themselves, who don't want to fit into a normal straight society. So, , that kind of trickles down into the masculinity even of Alec knowing that about his father. But then he's getting this, he's getting somewhat oppressed by his mom, but then he's getting strengths from his aunt.

And he's, but he's li he's also, I like very much. In development of his own identity through that chapter. And then, , you've got the influence of his grandfather, , he loves his grandfather. That whole chapter is a really a love letter to his grandfather, , and, and yes, finding photograph and, , the, the blessings and the symbolism of all of the items that kind of come, come and, and are tied up in that chapter also linked to the masculinity of each character, of each of the male characters that survive and that impact on each new 

Clare: generation.

It's true. And even that each generation perhaps is just a little, just a little bit better than the one [00:46:00] before. Not, not streaks ahead because, , is, is nicking after maib and be the same as getting drunk in the pub and getting hit by a tram. , like it's that same, it's not exactly the same, but it's that same selfishness, perhaps putting yourself above your family or your obligations.

And is maybe the hope that Alec won't do that, that he's setting the tone for the new generation. We hope in the, in not getting in the car. Like that was his walking outta the tram, deciding to go to ma maam Bibi equivalent moment in the text and his choice to prioritize his family over what he wanted.

The making the, , selfless community-based decision over the selfish hedonistic decision. Yeah. Then suddenly that's made that's then gonna set the rest of his life perhaps in a different trajectory. 

Melinda: But also there's little links back to how his grandfather is influencing. Like, [00:47:00] yes, there's a lot, there's a line about how it would become clear later.

Why KIPP was obsessed with his daughters using protection contraception, but he doesn't kick her out or deny her when they go over and when they go over to Uncle Frank's house and say, oh my God, we've gotta knock on the door. I've gotta tell Dad that, , Charlotte's pregnant. Yeah. There's no dad around.

, that could all go an incredibly different way. But the masculinity that what, what we're exploring is the duality of, , the anime and the animus and different, different kind of things in, in a masculine form that Jordan wants to show us is and are possible beyond the, what you would've seen in real life of just men looking drunk and hopeless, falling out of the pub when they were depressed about the war, or it was post-war, or they didn't have enough jobs or whatever it.

They didn't have enough money and that, yes, they're in very poor areas. So I love, I love how she explores this kind of [00:48:00] duality and these kind of possibilities for the evolution of masculinity throughout the novel as 

Clare: well. She does. I've never thought about it that way. That's kind of blown my mind a little bit.

in a really good way. Swear. I love doing this so much. So, I mean, cuz what, what's important I think also is that within a feminist reading, you can still talk about the male characters. A feminist reading doesn't just have to focus on feminism is not just about the women we, it's about the social, I guess, paradigms or social structures that support or deny power in, , individual's power.

I mean, and who has that power 

Melinda: arguably Kick Kip and Abel , They're the kind of archetypes that make everything Okay. . Mm. They're 

Clare: incredible characters. Yes. Really are. And they're setting the tone, right? Yeah. They're setting the tone. Yes. Yes. 

Melinda: Oral fiber, tenacity [00:49:00] survival. Upholding social values and mores in difficult times.

Clare: Love. Love how to love someone. Yeah. To love someone meaningfully and, and how to support a family and, yeah. Yeah. And how to be good. 

Melinda: Yes. , a lot of books and a lot of novels explore this notion of how to be good and it doesn't mean, and, , in this. Context, , when we're back e earlier in, in the novel, how to be good is, , going to school even if you can't afford it, going to church.

Mm. Extending to your, to the, to their neighbor, even if they're Protestant or, or even if they're Catholic, right? Indeed, no, there's these whole kind of like social tensions and conflicts between groups of people that don't really exist now. I mean, the only thing that you could say to students is, well, if you think about the way that Muslim people are portrayed in the media from time to time it's i's improving.

It's improving since nine 11. But, , like you've got this, and that's the [00:50:00] other thing, , Alex born in that era, and , he's, he's coming of age in a period where everything about social values and mores are, are changing rapidly and earlier it took a lot longer. Yeah. A lot longer for things to change.

Things were embedded in people's ideas of who you were as a human. Yes. And how to behave and , what clothes to wear and how you spoke and what you, what subjects you could talk about and what was acceptable. And it was a much simpler life. You, you met people through going to dances at the local church.

You Yeah. You went to Faith's, , which sort of still exists sort of, but yeah. It, it's, it's a lot of ra it, it traverses this period and then, , the last few chapters really tie up in, in that Alec chapter. It really sort of ties up how much change has happened. Which is not just like the literal change Yeah.

But in the way we think about ourselves now in a secular world without religion and, , without. without things propping us up to say, you have to do this to be a good person or exist in, [00:51:00] in society. 

Clare: And even, dare I say it, well, this may be a problematic statement, but Australia, I think a more, a modern Australia would like to think that it's a classless society if we are comparing it to the Australia that gene Westaway is existing in.

And that idea of getting halfway up the hill for all those reasons we talked about with Richmond, that the bottom of the hill was arguably just as nice as the top of the hill in Richmond, because Richmond as a whole is a nice suburb. So I think we do still have class structures in Australia. We just, they're not as explicit as they once were.

And so all of those things have changed and broken down and recreated so clever what she's done. Yeah, I have such awe and respect for what she has done. And how per, I think also how purposeful everything is. , even the, the order of the characters, the information that she gives, the way that she, like you mentioned before, we build our understanding and she builds her [00:52:00] characterization throughout the chapters, not just in the chapter that that character owns, I suppose that is so deliberate and so purposeful and so considered and so clever.

So clever entirely. Yeah. For us to be able to have these, this level of a conversation for the time that we've had today, requires that. So I wonder, does that bring me into my final question, which you have answered, but I think it's still nice to bring it all back together, which is why do you think this text is important and by extension, why, why is it on the year 12 

Melinda: text list?

I think there's a universality about the themes, issues and ideas that Jordan explores in nine days. I,

like I said, there are archetypal characters, even though they are very ordinary people, they are not gods. They are not, they are not, they are not mired in mythology. They are very Audi ordinary people. But there are some archetypes in there that really speak to this [00:53:00] notion of, , how to be good.

How to be a good person. How to survive. How to survive tragedy. How to survive war. And how to, how to succeed in a society that doesn't just give you what you want just because you want it. Mm-hmm. . I also think that it's, it's the VCA text because. , the depth of understanding and insight and, and that we can glean from reading this text and rereading it, it really speaks to the, the, the ways in which our society has become more fractured.

Where once even all, it was all much more cohesive, much closer together, and much more visible. Mm-hmm. . And it was very hard to escape. , your identities were much more fixed that it, your identities, your identity, your personal identity was hard to escape. In the earlier chapters of the, [00:54:00] of the novel, the world, the setting, , the context, the background, the jobs, the, the, , the ways in which you behave, the cl, the social.

Places that you belong to no longer exist. As in, in the way. In the same way, we're not compelled to go to church any longer. We're not compelled to, 

, extend our hand to our neighbor in the same way if we don't want to, , because of deprivation or rationing or whatever, whatever it, whatever it may be.

Clare: That's true. And, and we're not bound 

Melinda: by so many, we live close. We don't live as close to our neighbors in the sense that we're not looking over the back fence at people's washing or not washing on the line. Some people would say that if X hadn't, if Mrs. Westaway hadn't done the washing on a certain day, there was something wrong.

We're not looking at each other in that way anymore. 

Clare: In fact, we can control how people look at us now. That's. 

Melinda: So there's a liberation in it. She's showing us that there's a liberation in, in how we have [00:55:00] evolved, but also that perhaps it's a little bit more lonely and a little bit more separate than it used to be as well.

And maybe there's a, a common ground. There's a, there's a ground in between that's it's, that's better to try and strive for rather than one pole versus the other pole. Yes. One, one side 

Clare: versus the other. Some gray in the middle. Yeah. You 

Melinda: know, it's good to have community and have that nexus of, , everybody all for one and one for all.

And perhaps with a li , with a little bit more ability to separate ourselves and see, see who we are without being in each other's pockets all the time. 

Clare: Yes. Oh, I like that. That's a broader intent. You have blown my mind a bit today, Melinda. I'm not gonna lie, which I enjoy. Kind of what? Yeah. I, I think this is, this is the joy I think of the job that we do.

That there are [00:56:00] so many different readings of a text and, , I can be sitting here as an English teacher who has engaged with this text for the last, this is the fourth year. It's on the text list. It's the fourth and I believe last year. And that we can have, , chat about this and I can think, oh, it's actually really changed the way I see the text.

Or next time I go into it, I might look at it with renewed. I will look at it, not mine. I will look at it with, with renewed meaning. So thank you. Oh, thank you. It's likewise generous. Very generous, 

Melinda: thought of a lot of thought differently in, in, throughout our conversation. You've prompted me to think about it in, , much more sort of diversity and yeah.

Thanks. It's been 

Clare: great. Oh, pleasure. Maybe we'll meet again. I'd like that. Thank you. Thank you so much.